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Thinkific CEO Greg Smith interviews sales and marketing expert Heather Havenwood on how to get interviewed on podcasts to help build your brand, increase your authority and grow your online course business.

To learn more about Heather visit:

Getting Interviewed On Podcasts To Increase Your Authority @hhavenwood Share on X



[Greg] Hello and welcome to Teach Online TV.

I am here with Heather Havenwood and the Sexy Boss—

Author of—is it Sexy Boss?

The author?

You’re the author of Sexy Boss?

And Heather has been involved in internet marketing since 1999.

So that was about the time I was getting involved in this space.

So we both go back always there.

I saw that in 2006, you were working with a client and brought them–

Basically, brought a whole new business from 0 to over a million in sales with no lists, no prior brand or anything.

–which I think is amazing.

Coz that’s definitely something we see a lot of people looking to do is how do you even just get started.

And then we were just chatting about your podcast—

Podcast history, podcast strategy and talking about the amazing number of podcast that you’ve been on recently.

So I’d love to learn a little bit more about how you’re doing that.

How to be a good guest on a podcast and use that to kind of build your list and build your audience and build your traffic.

So welcome to Teach Online TV.

Really great to have you here, Heather.

I’ve been looking forward to this conversation ever since I heard we were going to have a chance to talk.

So welcome.

[Heather]Thanks for Teach Online TV.

I feel like I’m,

‘teach online TV’

You should have  like a jingle for that.

Teach Online TV—or something like that.

[Greg] We do, it rolled right before this.

So people that are watching just saw it.

[Heather] Oh my god, wow, I feel like a dork.

That’s okay, that’s alright.

[Greg] No, no, no.

I don’t think they’re singing like in a typical jingle but it might just be a little bit of music and some images.

[Heather] Oh good.

Well now you should have a jingle.

So thanks for having me on.

This could be a lot of fun.

Hopefully I’ll have a ton of value.

Give, give, give, give, give as much as I possibly can– that’s my intention.

[Greg] Awesome. Yea.

Coz I know you have the experience and a lot of areas on marketing that people here are definitely interested in and me too.

[Heather] Oh great.

[Greg] So love to hear more from that.

[Heather] Awesome. Let’s get started.

[Greg] Yea.

There’s one thing that you’ve mentioned before about taking that personal story and personal brand and using that to kind of grow and build your audience.

I’d love to hear a little bit about how you’ve done that for people and even for yourself.

[Heather] Yea. Absolutely.

So just to give you an idea, I started—

We started a business 2008 really from scratch again.

I think the beauty of when you have to learn from scratch in business with  no back up,

maybe it wins or it fails or whatever happens,

you have this kind of confidence of like, ‘I can do it again if it happens again.’

You know what I mean?

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] So I did build a business really quickly in 2005-2006 from 0 to million dollars but then it was like taken away from me.

What I mean by that is like a business partner who I thought everything was kosher and then came home one day from an event and everything was gone.

And I still have things called bills and mortgage so.

And everything was gone.

Bank accounts were completely empty and I really had to figure out one,

Do I even want to be in business anymore?

I want to be this whole entrepreneur thing, anyway.

And then 2, if I do, how do I get started?

So it took a while.

to get back to basically in 2008 for me to what i call get my feet back underneath me and start from scratch again.

But I started a business that it was information market only really heavy on email marketing from scratch.

And I did something very strategic.

I did something where it’s like, I wanted to make sure I created a business that it was 100% evergreen.

What I mean by that is before I was in the real estate industry and whenever you create a real estate course, not all niche are like these but a lot of niches are.

Where you build an information marketing real estate course

they sell it based on fear and they sell it based on ‘this is the right thing and the last thing was not good.’

Does that make sense?

Like, ‘Now, now, now, now.

Things have changed.

The laws have changed.

Issues have changed.

And I have the right stuff.’

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] And so theirs this theory and you constantly have to keep creating products.

Constantly because in the mortgage business or in the real estate industry changes.

Or just like the stock business—just constant change.

I don’t want to do that.

Coz one thing you know about me Greg, I don’t like creating products.

I don’t.

I don’t know if you have experienced this.

If someone’s go and create a product, I’m like—[snores]

Oh my gah—

I just don’t enjoy the process.

So I said if I’m going to create information marketing product,

I wanted to be something I can sell over and over and over again.

And I never have to touch it. Like, right?

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] So that was one of my intention was.

We’ll get into the dating business.

Because look.

Greg, Look.

You guys don’t change much okay so.

You guys don’t change much.

You just don’t right?

So I figured If I can teach men how to date women,

then that product will never go away and it’s recession proof.

And I’m telling you all of this because you might resonate with the fact that you don’t like to create products.

You might be really good at the selling process.

But you’re not good at creating products sort of like me.

Or you’re the opposite.

You are one of the people that loves to create products. [5:03]

I’ve got like 10 products I want to sell but I don’t how to sell it—that’s what I get a lot more actually.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] I got this product and I got this product.

But no one’s bought them.

Or how do I sell this stuff?

On the opposite side, I love promoting.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] I don’t like creating products.

[Greg] That’s great.

Coz that’s often—

It’s often the reverse.

That’s the hard part for people.

They have that expertise.

They have the passion.

They put it all together.

And sometimes, unfortunately, they go all the way through that without even thinking about the marketing or the sales.

[Heather] Yes.

[Greg] and then it’s okay, ‘I got it, what do I do next?’

[Heather] Yea, like I got this thing. How do I sell it?

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] That’s what I learned in the information market back in 2001.

Is that ‘just because you have a great thing, doesn’t mean people want to buy it.’

So you really have to reverse-engineer the process.

So taking you back to where we are today, where we’re talking about podcasting and promoting oneself.

I got involved in podcasting on August 2015.

So right now were talking about a year later about September 2016.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] And I love the medium.

I love it, love it, love it.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] because it’s like I’m here in my house.

I have my cup of coffee.

I’ve got my mic.

I’m good. I’m hanging out.

You don’t know if I forgot my underwear on or not – just saying it.


You don’t know.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] I love that.

I really love to be able to just relax– have a good time.

So 2000—

August 2015 to about January 2016, I’ve been on over a hundred podcasts.

So I think at this point I’ve been on 150.

I’ve stopped counting.

[Greg] Excellent.

[Heather] Now, that’s not till I go oh look at me.

It’s about every time I’m on any kind of summit.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] or a podcast or a radio station.

My job is to give, give as much as I possibly can.

And give value.

And be an amazing guest for you and your listeners.

That’s my job.

It’s not narcissistic.

It’s when I say give, give, give, give, give.

I want to make your show amazing because in the end of the day,

I’m in your house.

I’m literally on your platform.

I’m in your house.

It’s not mine.

So I want to make sure I add value.

And what happened with that, it just kind of sparked.

People started talking like, ‘hey she’s awesome, she’s great’

Because being a guest, believe it or not, I thought was—

To me it’s easy but for some people, it’s challenging.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] oh wow, why is it challenging?

Couple of things.

One, if you’ve ever done media training?

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] if someone’s being media trained—

Media training is taught in sound bites.

Because that they do video.

Like say TV.

I’ve been on TV 4.

I had a total of 2 minutes and 30 seconds of that whole spot.

And I had to talk in sound bites.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] Right.

And you can’t tell a story on sound bite.

You tell a sound bite.

You sell–

Boom. Where are you from?

This is what I do?

Boom. Boom. Boom.

It’s quick and it’s fast and it’s to the point.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] When you’re in a show like this or a summit or podcast, whatever this audio—the medium.

Okay. You have to tell a story.

And you have to engage.

And it’s entertainment plus education.

It’s a different kind of conversation.

And it’s a conversation.

I’m not speaking at you, Greg.

Coz you’re not my audience.

And I’m not speaking at you.

We’re engaged in a conversation.

[Greg] Right.



[Heather] People are just listening while we’re having coffee—literally.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] And people listen.

So that’s the difference.

So That’s the idea of this medium.

I have to give you a chance.

[Greg] It’s okay. And I think yea, it’s a great point.

It’s definitely a reason why this whole medium is working really well.

And why you’re even seeing—

I was speaking to someone the other day– this professional radio for 15 years.

And they’re looking to getting into podcasting because they see all this opportunity over here.

Moving away from a lot of your conventional TV, radio, other areas.

And just amazing how everybody’s got their phone with them.

And they’ve got their podcast that they’re subscribed to.

It’s amazing how much they can listen to from their phone on the bus or in the car and all the other places that they are.

And you’re right.

It’s definitely a great medium to get out there and reach people.

So, are you finding that with—

I mean that’s pretty amazing you said—but 150 shows in the last year, is it working for you?

How are you– Are you tracking it?

Is it–

What are the kind of—

I’m really big on metrics and the backend of it.

The analysis after the fact.

I have a struggle of little bit seeing that with the podcast just because I know that some people,

they’re listening to it and I’m like, ‘hey go to this link dot com.’

And it’s in the show notes.

And we’ve created a special link to get an offer for you.

But sometimes you’re just not entirely sure how much of that traffic is generated from other sources and how much exactly coming from the exposure you’re getting from the podcast.

[Heather] Yea.

So, I completely agree.

And I’m a Google analytics—GTM

Google tag manager girl.

However, I learned quickly that in the—

First of all, I look at podcasting–

When I say podcasting by the way, let me just clarify—

Summits, radio, media that’s like an overall arc.


There’s like a lot of elements in the audio space.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] I learned quickly that I couldn’t create a special link every time, right?

Because, if I’m on your show, I’m like hey go to

I just want them to go there because it’s a traffic conversation and I obviously it’s usually at the end of the show.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] versus if when I’m in a webinar which is a sales pitch.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] I will weigh more different kind of tracking.

I agree to you however I do see a huge—

Do you see—

I have seen huge increase at my traffic in the last year.

And I also realized that if I’m at one person’s podcast, they’re placing that all over the place.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] Right. And then they’re placing that on their social media.

On their email marketing, potentially.

So after that, you don’t know.

Hard to track.

But I do see.

I see huge increase in traffic.

[Greg] That’s good.

[Heather] So I look at it as a traffic source.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] I mean just traffic source.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] And I’m okay with that.

[Greg] And has that been your primary channel for the last year?

[Heather] Yea.

I mean, I’m just– I went full on on that.

I’m just now hiring an SEO company organically to restructure some things.

Coz I realized, even though I’m on all these shows,

I have only have like 5 of them linked back to me.

Guys, c’mon link up back.

You think I have all of these back links but I only have 5.

So I have to go back.

Not everyone’s internet marketing savvy in all these shows.

Would you mind putting my website on your website.

That would help us, you know.

But here’s how I see it.

In the information marketing space, it’s all about the traffic on the front end.

It’s what you do with the traffic on the back end that really matters, okay?

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] When I was in the information marketing business,

I was in the seminar business where I used to get in the car.

And then I would get to the airport and would then get on the plane.

I would sleep around my freaking ab suitcase and I would go to a new city every single week.

Oh my god, I’m so tired even just talking about it.

I did that for 7 years.

And we went to a different city every week.

And we did—

We did 2-4—

We did 6 presentations a week every week in different cities.

[Greg] I see why you like doing this from home.

[Heather] It was so—

I mean I do have a gold membership on Delta Crown.

But still, Delta Crown was like my second home.

What I learned in that business is that we went into a city,

let’s say Chicago and we spend radio, TV, newspaper ad to get 40 people in the room—no kidding.

40 people.

And we sold 10%– 4 people


The company, right.

At that time if we broke even—not making money.

If we broke even, they were happy.

Like what?

How are you making any money?

Coz it’s all about the back end.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather]It’s all about the back end.

What they did with that current list of people didn’t buy.

And what they did with the list of people that did purchase.

I promise you, over a period of years, they pulled a lot of money out of that list.

And so they had about 14s coming on.

Travelling around the world doing this.

I’m trying to give you a visual of how much money used to be to actually build a list and how much easier it is now.

Podcasting has now been able to create this space.

I’m on 150 hours of free publicity.

That’s crazy.

If you think of that, that’s pretty—

And I’m not saying you could do that,

But if you just get 10 hours–

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] Right.

of free publicity, that’s 10 hours evergreen.

It’s recorded.

It’s going to be heard over and over again for months on end.

So it’s a pretty powerful medium when you look that way.

[Greg] And would you say for someone who’s looking to—

Well actually, back to your point about promoting and actually generally like we’ll mention something upfront.

We’ll definitely put the link in for you there.

[Heather] Awesome. Put a back link on me.

[Greg] but for people who are—

For people who are listening, watching it’s is where they can find more about you and that is for advice information around marketing.

More around podcast, email marketing–

That kind of help as well.

[Heather] Yea. Absolutely, so the is kind of my center hub of everything.

You can find my book there.

Sexy boss.

I also have 5 other books on Amazon.

You can check—

If you’re interested, hey look at this girl.

This girl sound pretty cool.

Maybe hang out– talk.

You want to interview me on one of your podcasts.

You can go to the upper right hand side, it says work with Heather.

Get up my calendar and let’s just chat and see how we can work together.

So that’s kind of my hub.

But I have like 5 other sites going on.

I have the soul mate company.

I’ve got the dating business.

I’ve got weight-loss company, locally.

So it’s not only thing I do.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] and it’s my main hub.

So yea, heatherhavenwoodcom is my main.

But I’m sharing this with you,

Go to

And go to that page because I think this is the number 1 tool that a lot of people who want to get on as a guest in front of podcasts don’t do.

They don’t have a media page.

And go steal from me.

Like, go steal.

Totally steal from me.

Because honestly, it is the number 1 sales tool I use every day.


So when I reach out to your team.

Okay, we’re introduced.

Please go check on my media page and have a video of me talking.

It had my images already go to grab.

It had my bio.

And it had 2 or 3 other podcasts of me so you can listen if I’m good or not or stuck or whatever, right?

Right? It’s fine.


It’s my judge.

I’m telling you judge me.

Here’s my media page, judge me.

And that’s what we do.

That’s what you’re supposed to do.

And then people get to say, ‘yes, no, you suck, you’re cool, c’mon aboard.’

because what’s interesting about these kinds of shows, Greg, is that it’s counter-intuitive.

I mean you have—

This is my analogy.

You’ve got a party going on here.

You’ve got your community here I call the party.

It’s a tribe—I don’t like tribe.

I call it a party.

[Greg] Yea, okay.

[Heather] So you have a party going on and I’m over here going, ‘hey can I come to your party?


Which is totally counter-intuitive.

Because we want to be invited to the party.

[Greg] You’re bringing the booze to the party, right?

[Heather] But I’m bringing the booze.

Oh my god, I’m going to use that.

[Greg] Yea. You’re bringing the booze or you’re just the entertaining guest that everybody gets to enjoy talking to or listening to.

[Heather] Yea. But it’s counter-intuitive for people to say, you know hey Greg got this cool party going on, I’m going to go and invite myself to the party.

People don’t like to be into invite themselves.

They want to be invited.

But that’s how this business works.

We ask to be invited and it’s very counter-intuitive.

So because of this, use the tools of a media page coz it’s going to be—

It’s just a great thing to use in leverage– that invitation.

It’s like hey, I’m invited. [16:50]

Check out my page.

Tell me if I’m cool or not.

I mean, that’s what we’re really doing.

Right? So.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] If you look at it that way, it kind of releases the pressure off of people, I think.

[Greg] Yea. Definitely.

And I think that the first few times I reached out about getting on a podcast,

It was–

There’s a little bit of nervousness like, is this going to work.

Are they going to want me on the show.

And then you get on a few and you realize that even those people hosting the party,

they’re actually looking for great guests.

[Greg] So if you can bring–


[Greg] and as you said, give, give and bring value and not just come and just sell.

But you’re coming in actually like I’ve got some great stuff to teach to share stories.

[Heather] Oh yea.

[Greg] And the stories, you’re so right.

It’s a huge piece of it.

If you can bring those stories that’s great.

That’s what they’re looking for.

And they’ll be happy to have you.

Come and join the party.

Especially if you bring the booze.

[Heather] By the way, I really love that.


I’m bringing the booze, dude.

You’re invited.

I want to give your tribe, your party, 3 things that I think if they say, hey I want to do this.

I want to go out there to be and promote myself to be on people’s guest or shows and what not.

They need—

There’s 3 action items, right?

There’s 3 steps that they need to do. Okay?

[Greg] Excellent.

[Heather] So one, structure.

So what’s the structure?

The structure is the media page—first off.

Like what I call the narcissistic page which is all about you, okay?

And really you’re really are sharing yourself.

You’re highlighting yourself which is so sometimes weird for people.

But it’s a media page, okay?

Again, go to mine and just rip it off, that’s fine.

I’m totally cool with that.

[Greg] Might want to change the name.

[Heather] Yea. Change the name and change the images.

But you can rip it off.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] That’s really funny.

People probably do that.

What if they like grab they images like, ‘this is me.’

[Greg] Here I am, I’m the author of Sexy boss and this is the video of me.

[Heather] Oh my god.

Probably someone will do that.

Please don’t.

[Greg] I don’t—

No one in our party would do that.

[Heather] Okay cool.

So mainly the structure, that’s the first part.

[Greg] So that especially the media page there is great, yup.

[Heather] I mean it sounds so simple to you and I Greg.

But you and I both know that you’ve been on either shows or had someone on and you’re like, ‘hey where’s your image.’

Oh let me send you a doc.

Or where’s your bio.

Let me send you a word document.

I’m like dude, it’s 2016.

You can’t even make a landing page.

C’mon dude.



I mean dude, really?

So just the basics and another one,

don’t create this long bio.


You want the short bio and the long bio.


I’m sure you’ve had this one too, it’s like a dissertation.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] You know like bios.

Ok, look dude.

I didn’t ask for a resume.

I asked for a bio.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] Just a very brief one.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] So again, you want to set it up for success.

That’s what I mean by the structure, right?

[Greg] Yea. Yea.

And I’ve been on shows where they say, bio max 50 words.

That’s all they want.

50 words.

That’s it.

So you could–

Sometimes it’s 100.

Sometimes 150.

I don’t think I’ve seen more than like 150-200 words.

Nobody wants to through this huge bio to bring you on.

[Heather] No, no.

And you also—

Here’s another one.

Hopefully, Peter Vister is not listening.

If he is, he’s going to laugh.

He’s so adorable.

He’s really, really awesome.

I love peter.

We had a great interview.

I actually interviewed him.

His bio was in the first person.

So it says, I, Peter Vister.

So I had to—

I’m like, ‘Peter I can’t read it.’

‘I, Peter Vister, welcome to the—

Wait what?

You can do it in 3rd person.

[Greg] Yup.

[Heather] Peter Vister is.

Poor guy.

Sorry Peter.

He’s never done one before so I had to like lead him on it.

Put it in to 3rd person.

He’s like, ‘I didn’t know.’

It’s okay, it’s fine.

I’m telling him he’s adorable.

That he was like, ‘I’m clueless.’

But it was a great interview.

He’s actually really smart.

That’s the first part, structure.

Second though is setup mic.

Again, couple of weeks ago, had a really awesome guy on–

I was actually asking him to be my guest.

And I’m all ready for the call and he calls me on his cell phone.

And I’m like, where are we going to meet?

We’re meeting on Skype.

Like I can call you via Skype from my phone.

I’m like, ‘get a mic, you don’t have a microphone.’

I’m like, ‘what?’

This guy’s a really professional master of his field and just get a microphone now.

I’m on this really cool one.

I kind of stepped it up .

But the 1st 100 or so podcasts, I had this thing called a yeti—blue yeti.

I still have it.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] it’s like a $129 online.

Maybe, It might—they might even get it for used for $90.

There’s so many people like—

You don’t–

[Greg] is that the ATR you’ve got?

[Heather] Yea.

So now I have a full-blown ATR.

It’s in my mixer.

Mixer’s into the computer.

I mean, I really stepped it up.

That was after 9 months of doing this hon.

You don’t have to get there.

The reason is I can do this and it looks like really cool.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] It’s got this cool turquoise going.

Mainly it’s coz it’s a lot more fun.

But this was like I still have this to this day coz sometimes I need to use it as my backup.

So get a microphone.


You know your better than this, right?

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] I’m–

[Greg] Yea, I’ve got a bunch here.

I’m using actually my—

I’m just on the snow ball today but I have the ATR that you’ve got there and then the Shure SM7B as well.

But unfortunately my—

The audio, what do you call it?

This thing, Audio—

I can’t pull it in front of the camera

It’s still hooked up with all the cables but the audio interface was kind of having some issues.

So I stepped it down to my simple snowball which is like $60.

Stepped it down to that because it seems to work fine and my other one’s having issues.

[Heather] Yea. I mean but at least you have something.

You got backups.

The other thing I, again—

This is part of step 2, set up.

Is when you’re dealing with audio and visual,

right now we’re doing both.

–with audio and visual.

Just like now, I am like what I call hard-wired in my computer.

I’m not using Wi-Fi


No way am I going to use Wi-Fi.

You got to go hard-wire.

You got to plug it in.

You got to plug it in.

I know other people be like what?


You got to plug it in.

Because when you’re dealing with audio and visual,

It takes one thing living with the two

they can go in and out really fast with Wi-Fi and you don’t want that to happen when you’re dealing with audio and visual

[Greg] Yea.

We had to hard wire the studio here.

And we actually got in—

We’re getting in fiber now.

So, probably overkill for most people but definitely on the hard-wire, you’re right.

[Heather] Yea.

You got to plug it in.

So that’s the second part of the structure.

The structure.

And number 3 is what we’ve been talking about which is promotion.

And with that is,

is now that your set up.

You’re ready to go.

You’re clear on your market to message.

You got your media page.

You got all your images.

Then now you can start promoting yourself, right.

Then you can start saying, ‘hey, Greg, I got some value I want to add to your community.

–to your tribe.

Here’s what it is.

The cool thing about the industry—

I think about with podcasting is more about mass media.

Okay, what do I mean by that?

We talk a lot about internet marketing, niche.


It’s all in the niche-ing.

Which is true–

[Greg] Or word niche.

[Heather] I’m sorry, niche.

[Greg] No, no.

The niche is fine.

I’ve adopted the language so I’m the niche.

[Heather] Oh you have, okay cool.

Well I’m from Texas, you don’t sound Canadian at all by the way.

[Greg] I don’t think so eh?

[Heather] eh, there it is.

So basically with this part is you want to promote yourself, right.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] And we talk about niche.

And niches are great.

However, when you want to go mass media, you want to be more broad.

You got to have a little bit of a broader message.

Then you can what I call tweak your message on the specific show, okay?

So first instance I was in a show recently where the show was geared towards lawyers.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] Right, I’m like, this is going to be fun.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] The guy was actually really nice.

Right, you’re a lawyer.

Is this going to be boring?

But he was actually a lot of fun.

And we talked about marketing because lawyers normally what they would do is they market themselves all the time.

They’re promoting themselves like that’s all that they do. Right?

[Greg] Often though we’re not very good at it though but, yea.

[Heather] Yea.

Exactly they should have an entire semester at least on promotion in law school which I know they don’t.

So that’s why I was talking to these guys about.

How do you self-promote yourself.

All the skillsets that we know in information marketing, they all should learn.

How do you promote yourself?

So I was talking to them about marketing and promoting oneself in the lawyer space.

And it was a great—

It was actually great interview.

We had a lot of fun.

The guy loved it.

He asked a ton of questions and hopefully he’ll ask me out again.

Asked me out again.

Ask me again.

Ask me out again?

Just kidding honey, I’m engaged so don’t freak out.

So it’d be basically, I’m giving you an idea,

Like it’s a mass media and then when you’re on a specific call, you can go niche.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] You want to market yourself what I call a little bit more broad so that you can go on different shows.

[Greg] Right.


[Heather] So there’s that.

People ask me all the time and this is a great question about leverage-ability.

Why are you doing this?

Why are you on many shows?

Well, it’s kind of like saying,

‘I was on Fox News but I don’t want to be on CNN.’

Who cares?

Fox News.


Coz everyone’s got what I call flavour on coffee.

If I’m the person being asked to be on CNN,

I’m going to be on CNN.

I’m going to be on MSMBC.

I’m going to be on OI1-142 Canada whatever.

Like I don’t care.

Coz I just want my message out there.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] Because I also know is people stick to one channel, right .

What I mean by that is they have their little favourite.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] I’m a Fox News-er.

I watch Fox News all day—pretty much in the background all the time.

Every now and then I’ll go over and watch Anderson Cooper on CNN coz he’s just so pretty.

But I basically watch Fox News.

I know I’m very—

I know who they are.

Every now and then I’ll go CNN.

But I kind of assume that if there are guests and they’re an expert,

they’re going to go try to put themselves on every single channel possible, okay?

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] So I kind of assumed I’m going to get what I call most of the guests out there.

And I’m okay if I don’t.

Coz I’m like, ‘well if Fox News doesn’t like him, I don’t like him.’


I’m like the perfect customer for them.

They love me.

But I want you to understand, the listener of the podcast, that’s how they are.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] Once in they’re in with this show, they’re in.

They’re like their customer for life.

They’re going to listen to you.

They’re  part of your community and tribe.

[Greg] Yea. Hopefully.

[Heather] Right. Hopefully, right?

That’s why you want to go to so many tribes.

And you want to go to so many platforms.

[Greg] Yea. And definitely you’re right.

There’s not a lot of crossover.

Especially if you’re going from lawyer show to course creators and teaching online show, right?

There’s very, very little crossover there.

So you’re reaching a whole new segment every time you go.

Probably even more so than say Fox and CNN.

With how segmented the whole podcast space is.

[Heather] Oh yea.

[Greg] It’s great.

Don’t limit yourself for sure.

[Heather] So I want to share something really quick with your audience coz I’m just learning about your company and what you do it’s super cool and we’re going to talk about that later.

But I want to give you all a little reminder of how the information marketing business used to be.

So back—

I feel so old.


Back in the day, 2001 like 1999.

It’s not that long ago people.

Oh well.

Back in 2001 when I was doing seminars and events.

We were selling other seminars and we were selling information marketing.

Back then you had to create the product.

Get it printed.

Get it in a binder.

If it was audio, you had to get a CD.

Then you got to get casing.

A lot of expense.

And then you don’t know how many you are going to sell.

So you had to like pick a number out of your head of how many you’re going to sell.

Coz then you’ll figure out how many going to be there and go backwards on the percentage.

You can see where this goes.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] We’re constantly carrying books and tapes and CDs with us.

Because these are stuff that we didn’t sell.

And they were heavy.

I mean they were big, right.

Big and heavy and bulky.

We call it the thud factor.

Because the bigger and heavier they were, people feel that there’s more value.

And nowadays, you can create the product once and then have it sell for like you is you can sell 1-2-3-4,000 and you never have to—

Basically spin any more money to create it.

That’s powerful.

That is crazy.

That is powerful.

And I love that.

But it’s come a long way.

I think it’s just really cool

It’s a lower barrier of entry.

[Greg] Plus with the not having to travel.

[Heather] No travel.

[Greg] The things like podcast.

I mean occasionally, we still do need to go to the events and stuff but being able to do–

get the reach that you’re getting through the podcast that you’re getting just from your living room its great—

Or your studio.

[Heather] Oh yea. I’m no longer a gold member on Delta.

You think they don’t have like lifetime, right?

But every year you had to earn it again.

[Greg] ???? [30:50]

[Heather] Earn it? How do I earn anything by sitting on a seat for hours on end?

Is that earning anything?

No. It’s not.

Sitting there listening to you with the wind and the peanuts.

But that’s okay.

That’s another story.

[Greg] So, I—Im.

We didn’t—

We probably won’t get into email marketing and we talked a lot about podcast and you have a ton of expertise in email marketing so we might to have you back and chat with you more about that.

But I’m always curious.

This is what I like to do.

When I find someone like you who really understands email marketing.

I will go and sign up for what they offer just to kind of check and watch—

Occasionally I do get pulled in by all of the copy.

[Heather] Are you stalking me?

So you’re saying I’m publicly going to stalk you.

Is that what you were going to say?

[Greg] No, no.

I’m saying, I’ll go and sign—

Basically yea, you’re right.

That’s what I’m saying.

I’ll publicly stalk you and I have.

And so what’s the best place for people to go if they want to do that?

Coz you’re saying, hey take my media page and take it.

Name excluded and get your own images.

But for the email side,

if they want to learn from how you’re doing email,

Where’s the best place for them to go and do that?

[Heather] Okay so, I—

So my email marketing that I do on is way lower on a frequency level than it is in my dating business.

Dating business sometimes I would email 3-4x a day.

[Greg] Wow.

[Heather] And there’s a strategy behind that, we can talk about it in another time.

And there’s a lot of people like, ‘what? You’re spamming?’

It’s not spam.

There’s actually a literally strategy behind that.

If you want to stalk me on that, you can go to


Don’t worry, there’s no like weird sex spam or something coming at you.

But it is a lot of copy.

It’s a lot of copywriting.

I literally built the entire business really this learning copy.

How to do email marketing copy?

I mean, there’s days that I do 5 and 6 emails a day.

I write 5 and 6 emails a day.

I don’t hire out any of my copy.

All copyright’s all me.

Therefore if you don’t like it.

Stick it.

I’m just kidding.

I don’t want to hear it.

Just keep it to yourself. Okay?

We can always learn, right.



It’s just feedback Heather.

It’s just feedback.


It’s all my copy.

I don’t hire it out.

[Greg] Excellent.

[Heather] I’m a big believer there’s a couple of areas of the business when I’m working with clients, people always think—

have this idea like when they start a business,

they can just hire everything out and they can just hang out and be cool.

And I’m like, there are certain areas of your business you never let go off.

And I’m curious if you believe it or not, Greg.

[Greg] Definitely, yea.

[Heather] The one is finances.

Like, you can hire an external bookkeeper.

But it’s not going to be friend’s sister.

It’s going to be literally a third party bookkeeper.

You’re still whole control of that.—okay number 1.

Number 2 is your affiliate marketing, right?

The reason I think that’s really important it’s coz there’s major relationship with list holders.

Huge asset.

[Greg] Yup.

[Heather] number 3 that you should let go off is your email marketing.

[Greg] Right.

[Heather] And if you really don’t want to do that, I really don’t suggest it.

[Greg] Yea.

[Heather] Because it’s your connection to the world.

Really connection to your customers.

And it’s—

You can get so much data from emailing them– way more than social media.

Someone liking a bunch of images,

That’s some feedback but feedback for people who are literally responding to your email and then buying or saying something specifically to you privately is way more valuable.

So those are the 3 areas that I think that no business owner should let go off.

[Greg] Yea and I think even for the—

That’s great.

And even for other areas if you’re looking to let go of anything,

I always try and make sure that you’ve done it yourself for a while first and you understand it.

So that when you do go and let go,

you have some ideas to who to get to do it if they know what they’re doing and if they’re doing a good job ongoing.

If you’ve done it yourself and you watch the metrics and the performance for an ongoing period of time.

And then you’ve handed off and everything changes, you know something’s wrong.

Otherwise if you just bring someone in to do it right at the gate.

Then they can tell you it’s all these other problems.

It’s not them and you don’t know exactly what the reality is.

But you’re right, there’s actually a lot of stuff.

And you know even in my business, one thing that I still have intimate involvement in is our product itself.

And just being involved in actually the product that we put out.

[Heather] Sounds like you and I have what I call have some similar skinned knees and broken bones and that.

Coz I’ve done the same thing everyone else done, right?

????? [35:30]

I don’t.

And then whatever happens, I can’t get in.

I can’t get access.

I’m completely confused coz I just didn’t take the time to learn at least a little bit so that can like keep eye on their work.

Go, ‘hey, you’re always screwing up. You’re gone, dude.’

Versus, ‘I don’t know.’

I’ve learned quickly.

There’s pretty much not one part of the business that I’ve not touch.

Even down to learning GTM– Google tag manager at this point.

I know I can do my own Google tag manager.

I don’t need to hire that out.

[Greg] Excellent. That’s great.

Yes, definitely.

So that’s awesome.

So if people want to find out more about you, heatherhavenwood is the best place.

Anywhere else we should let them know to check out or anything else you want to share or say?

[Heather] Yea. Absolutely.

So [???] [36:19] of my book

And you can opt in.

You get 3 chapters of my audiobook of Sexy Boss or you can text the word SEXY to 7200.

And you get 3 free chapters of my audiobook as well.

Or you can check me out at

[Greg] Excellent.

So that was

I’ll probably go there coz I suspect that the text in—

What was the text in number?

[Heather] Text the word SEXY to 7200 but it will just power by mobile.

One of my sponsors for my podcast.

However, it can’t do international.

[Greg] Most of the text in ones have issues if you’re outside of the US but we still have a huge audience in the audience.

[Heather] But I’m actually if it works or you that’s why I’m asking.

Didn’t know international.

[Greg] I will try it out and let you know.

[Heather] I don’t consider Canada international.

I consider like anything like Mexico.

Anything beyond Mexico international.

I don’t consider Canada international.

[Greg] But we have the same area code—

Or that’s right the same country code, right?

[Heather] Yea, we do actually.

So you’re fine.

Canada’s fine.

[Greg] Excellent.

Thank you so much Heather.

I really appreciate it.

We’re going to have to talk again soon coz there’s a ton more stuff that we could learn from you and that our party could learn for you.

So thanks for bringing the booze.

[Heather] Yes.

[Greg] And the entertainment. I really appreciate it.

[Heather] You’re welcome.

[Greg] And yea, looking forward to having you involved in I think we got like wii online coming up.

And we got you involved in that, too.

So that’ll be a lot of fun as well.

[Heather] Yea, thanks for having me on that.

The woman 7th.

That’s going to be a ton of fun.

Thank you for having me on that by the way.

Really honored.

[Greg] Yea it’ll be fun. Thanks for coming.

[Heather] You’re welcome.

[Greg] Excellent.

Thank you Heather.

[Heather] You’re welcome.


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